Money matters but agency finances are seldom discussed. How should your agency structure billing? How can you keep client experience at the forefront of billing? Join Speak Creative's VPs and guest, BJ Maxwell, Director of Finance for an off topic conversation all about money.
Money Matters | Episode 8
David: Hello everyone and welcome once again to another episode of A Little Off Topic, one agency's water cooler chat on digital marketing, business, and all the things that get in the way, presented by Speak Creative. We have another awesome guest lined up for you today. He is the self-appointed mayor of Speak, the biggest Top Gun fan I know, an amazing golfer, and above all, the head accountant and Director of Finance at Speak Creative, BJ Maxwell. My name is David Caffey. I'm Speak's Digital Marketing Manager and the host of A Little Off Topic. I'm joined this week and every week by our VP leadership team. Kindra Svendsen is VP of Client Partnerships. The first of our two "Matts" is Matt Roberts, VP of Marketing and Sales. And finally with us again, is Matt Ervin, VP of Creative Services. So accounting and finance is not the most glamorous side of the marketing agency world, but without it our doors would not be open, which is why we are very happy and grateful to have BJ Maxwell on our team.
David: So today we'll talk through every facet of BJ's world, including an exclusive behind the scenes look at his revolutionary methodology for billing that has taken our world by storm. We'll also chat about how providing an excellent client experience extends all the way to even when the invoices are sent at the end of the month. Finally, since we have Speak's resident Andy Griffith show historian on the show with us today, and it's of course BJ, we'll wrap up by talking about some of our favorite old TV show moments. So lots of great info today, especially for folks involved in the agency world. So let's get right into it as always. We thank you for taking the time to listen to our show today, and I hope you enjoy today's episode of A Little Off Topic.
David: So we're always promising to bring you guys some hard hitting content, and we cannot think of a more hard hitting topic today than finance. It might not be the most fun and exciting topic in the world, but I can assure you that today, our podcast will definitely be fun. So before we introduce our guests, let me introduce our VP trio, starting with Kindra. Kindra, how are you today?
Kindra: I'm okay. School's back in session. It's a little stressful, but doing good.
David: Well, I wish I continue to wish you good luck in that. And then we have, we have our two Matts first of all, Matt Ervin. Hello. Hello.
Ervin: Hey David, how are you?
David: I'm fantastic. And finally, Matt Roberts is with us once again. Matt, good morning or afternoon, it's about to be afternoon.
Roberts: Good morning! It's still morning.
David: Still morning somewhere, that is always the case, I guess if you're a big fan of time like I am. So today's guest is our Director of Finance, BJ Maxwell. His bio that was given to me says he is a lover of the Andy Griffith show. He is Speak’s preeminent Top Gun scholar and the keeper of the numbers. So let's get right to it. BJ. Thank you for joining us as our third guest of all time, right?
Ervin: I think that's right. Ty, Jacob, and now BJ.
David: Third time's the charm. Very nice. So let's start off talking about money. Let's talk about the evolution of our billing process. So I know this is something that's not the front end/front facing, glamorous part of the agency world, but it's something that's keeping our doors open every day and has kept us open for 20+ years. So let's talk about how that evolved over time and where we've gotten to today.
BJ: We may need to get some time to stretch because this will be riveting. I haven't interacted with lots of agencies, but it seems that the trend has been what our practice was up till 4 or 5 years ago. It's 50/50. So give us half up front and you give us the rest of it when we finish a project. We found over time that the first 50 was reasonable and agreeable, but we found that if projects were to drag out, they're going to drag out in the last part of it. So we've been paid for 50% of it. We get 90% of the project done, and we get stuck in the back and forth of revisions and waiting on the content load or waiting on the client for this or that. So we're 80% into this. We've only been paid for 50% of it, and we can't bill for the rest of it until we're done. So at least for cash flow purposes, we tried to think of a better way to do that and to make sure our costs in it, or what we've invested in the project is close enough to what we're getting paid for. It. This wasn't a magic number by any stretch, but we thought we'd give it a shot with what we affectionately now call the 40/40/20 plan. So rather than get a 50% deposit, we get less of a deposit up front and bill something along the way so that we are not upside down on any given project, and it's really worked out great. So if we're 90% done with a project, we will have already been paid for 80% of it. If it starts to drag out at the end, we're not upside down. We just have obviously the 20% left to tidy up at the end. I don't know that I've found any other agencies that do that. It's helped out us cash flow wise. We think it's been a good experience for our clients during these "unprecedented times" if I may say so.
Roberts: Oh boy. Put a dollar in the jar.
BJ: We did adjust our proposals [during COVID-19] thanks to Matt Roberts and team. Just to give a cushion for cash flow purposes to a 50/30/20. But either way, we're getting 80% done with the project and we're expecting to be 80% paid for that project.
Roberts: I feel it's important at this point to maybe jump into if somebody is listening and they're running a business and thinking that sounds great, but not every one of their customers are going to jump in and say yes to that type of arrangement. I think it's probably worth saying that's where we start. So for folks who are just wondering how they need to pay is a really good model for us to show that this model keeps us engaged, them engaged, and cash flow in a relatively even spot. But for somebody who says they prefer a particular way for this to be billed that's different than 40/40/20, we can adjust. Because we've made the decision to look at how we can have a healthy cash flow in normal circumstances, then we can say yes to alternative arrangements pretty easily. If somebody needs to pay over a certain number of months or if they need to split it into a greater number of payments or a certain type of organization whose accounts payable always has to work a certain way. Those are always things that we can say yes to. To be able to just take a strategic look at our cash flow and structure our everyday type of arrangement to be something that's more in sync with the work that's being done, that's really where BJ came to the 40/40/20 trademark idea, and it's been really positive.
Kindra: We need a sound effect every time 40/40/20 is said.
Kindra: BJ mentioned not having been around a lot of other agencies and I have actually had the opportunity to be in a room and hear project managers hear the 40/40/20 idea for the first time.
Kindra: There are audible gasps the first time we shared this with them because in the project management world you're so focused on scope, budget, and timeline — and making those three things work together. In the 50/50 model or we’ve seen 100% model, even 80/20 models, there's always an imbalance of someone who feels they deserve more because they've either put 80% of the project down and so it's on their timeline, or they've only paid for 20% of the project, so they don't feel there's any skin in the game. So we heard over and over all of these different problems and we experienced those problems when we were on the 50/50 model of just how we can make this work a little bit better. The 40/40/20 really solved a lot of problems for us, but hearing other people say "why haven't we thought of this before?" is really the reason that I think it needs to be on the podcast today. BJ in all of his brilliance, deserves all the kudos for coming up against it. It's just smart math, it's smart business, and it keeps things flowing very nicely for us. So kudos, BJ, on the 40/40/20 plan. I was waiting for the sound effect.
BJ: We tie our invoices to things of value, so we don't track it by time. We attach an invoice to value. In our case, generally, there's a concept presentation where you can see it, we've been working, you can see something and fiddle around with it. That's attached to that second 40%. We're not just billing you for time and you haven't seen anything. Invoices are a delicate dance anyway often. But when they're attached to the value we bring to the table, then it's understandable. It's received far more agreeably.
Roberts: It's the whole point of value, but maybe to just say it more explicitly, you've earned the right to say, “Hey, we've done good work. You've seen it. We're headed in a good direction. Now we're going to invoice you for this for the second payment.” And it's received in a way that somebody agrees with it. We are in agreement, we're headed in the right direction. We give BJ a hard time about it, because 40/40/20…
Roberts:...alright, we don’t have to do that every time now. It is one of those things that we hear quite a lot in the office, but speaking of audible gasps. I do remember the time we were upstairs in the old office in Cordova when it was a conference room before it became a developer super/mega desk. We were up there working on some math and BJ floated the idea of 40/40/20. I'm pretty sure there were audible gasps in the room at that time too. So it's just a natural reaction to sheer brilliance.
BJ: Had I known, I would've patented that long before now.
Roberts: Well, maybe that's why nobody else is doing it. Did you actually get a patent in place?
BJ: Yeah, we need to edit that out. Hang on. Give me 10 minutes to file some paperwork.
Ervin: Yes. By the time the show is released, your patent should be fully filed.
BJ: This does allow us on the off chance that it's tied to a deliverable and maybe that deliverable isn't a hit or didn’t go great, we can hold off a second until we get that right. Because we're tying it to a certain experience and we trust the client's going to have a good one. So they feel when they feel good, they feel better about everything.
Kindra: From the agency perspective too, we're coming up on end-of-year billing. We're in Q3, and Q4 is right around the corner. That's always been a big focus for us is that we sold all this stuff in 2020, but we're not going to get paid for it until 2021 which makes the books uneven, and this has really helped with that too, because we can get up to 80% of the project done pretty well before the end of the year in most cases. But it really has helped that "end of the year bubble" that we are always monitoring too.
David: So when we talk about this type of billing process, we're really talking about our traditional project work or our monthly recurring retainer work that we go for, but there's a big segment of what you would call "small fish" or small work happening there. I think all four of you guys have had a hand in this in some cases, but when these small change requests or support requests that would lead to billable work come in, how do you maintain a mindset of looking out for revenue-generating opportunities? Obviously not just looking for ways to make a buck here and there, but really looking for ways that this can benefit both us and the client and picking that stuff up, especially in these times when every dollar matters in that sense, how do you keep that mindset going?
Kindra: If only there were a podcast on setting expectations that we could listen to?
Kindra: I think that is a big piece of it is just understanding what's what. If a client writes into support and needs a site change and it's not in the realm of support, we should have already set those expectations before to show what's covered and what is not. Those are really easy conversations to have, because then it becomes much more transactional is the word, that sounds not relational at all, but there's an understanding of what's covered and what's not, and those become easy asks for those requests. Then for ideas that we have, we really have to just push the value of them. Yes, this might take a couple hours to achieve, or this might take a whole new scope to achieve, but we perceive the value you're going to get out of it is greater than that. So really setting those expectations, setting what they can see into the future or what we predict will happen in the future with those changes, has been really the only way to have the conversation in a productive way.
Roberts: Yeah, I think there are a couple of other pieces to that idea. If you have a client who is in a regular rhythm of asking for updates to the design of a site or small technical changes that require somebody to come in and do a little bit of work and we're able to spot that pattern, that's as part of Kindra’s client partnership team, we want this to work for you. We see that you're pretty regularly engaged. You obviously care about your website. So just from smoothing out the rough edges of having to go through this request and invoice process, you can float it as a retainer where you say structure it as they get a certain number of hours a month for our team to come in and do some work. In any given month, you can come in and let us know what you want to get done in the next month. We'll just go ahead and have it on the books to get done, and we'll invoice you a level amount. So you just have to make it easy for that type of client to feel comfortable asking for those kinds of requests, because at the end of the day, they're obviously very invested in their website and it's beneficial for us to be in partnership and make that an easy thing for them to get everything out of their website that they want to get.
Roberts: The other thing is just being mindful of looking at requests that are coming through to ask what the goal of the change is. Sometimes the change request is just a change request. It's just a thing that needs to be done and you knock it out. But occasionally you do have somebody who's trying to accomplish something, and because we do what we do every day we can talk about it with people. The change that they're asking for maybe is not what's best for their site in the long term, or maybe there's a better way to help them do the thing that they want to do. It keeps something these small changes from becoming completely transactional. There's still a relational element for us to be able to look at and point to a there's either a pattern in place that we can help smooth out the requests or there's some business or organizational goal that we could help them meet in a better way, if we're able to have that type of conversation. So those are certainly some things to be on the lookout for as well.
BJ: From the money side, if you look back over the course of a year and just look at the number of little one-offs that at the time feels like we could just talk this out real fast and not worry about it. Well, if you've have 4 or 5 project managers and/or designers that are doing that, over time, it's thousands of dollars that have been overlooked. Maybe some of it shouldn't have been billed and that's fine. But to echo Kindra, let's set the expectation that we're going to be pretty firm and careful about the transaction here. If we need to make a call along the way to not charge for this or not, then we'll do that. So the expectation is that we're going to charge for this until we have a good reason not to, rather than the other way around. Before long, we're 10 of those into it, and either the system was being abused or the relationship was being abused, and we've given away a lot of time and money.
Kindra: I would say the majority of our clients are in business, they understand the business side of things. So I think as long as those expectations are set appropriately, they understand that they need 10 hours of work, which is something that they can't just get on a whim.
Ervin: I look at it from a couple of perspectives. One, I do look at it like BJ's saying, we have people that we have on staff that we have to pay every week to help keep things running. So supporting our clients cost us money. And so when they're asking for things that are clearly outside of just a regular support relationship, then it definitely makes sense to charge for that. But you do have to be careful about it. I usually try to look at the value of the relationship as a whole and ask myself if this is a client that asks for 20 things a month and so we need to charge them for this. Or if it's a client that's been with us for many years, and they're a great partner, then sometimes you roll it in and agree that we’re going to do this for them because they're such a great partner, and the ask is small enough that we feel we can get it in there. It's a little bit of a" how does it feel?" kind of test. But in the end, I do like to err on the side of charging for things, most specifically, because somebody's paying the cost when the work is done. If we don't charge for it and it should have been charged for, then we're the ones paying that cost. The client is asking you to do that when they ask you to do it for free. So it is no different for us to turn around and tell them they need to pay for this work as opposed to them asking Speak to pay for the work. That's how I look at it.
Roberts: We are looking for organizations that we want to work with. We say this a lot in the sales conversation, but we've been around long enough that we've been able to be successful and build a stable base of business that we hopefully get to be a little bit choosy and who we partner with as organizations. So we're looking for partners and I think a partner would expect that we're going to treat each other well on both sides, the client's going to treat us well and we're going to treat them well. They obviously see value in the services that we offer. So there's obviously an exchange of dollars for the services that we provide. We're very transparent with each other, on both sides. So if a new scope pops up and a client says "Oh man, I just don't have that in my budget. I wasn't planning for this expense" or whatever the case might be, hopefully, we're able to have that conversation with a client to help them find a solution to get whatever scope paid for. Maybe it's a delayed billing. Maybe it's some other arrangement that we make. And like Matt said, occasionally it's just somebody who we've worked with for forever. They're low key and low maintenance they just need a favor and we can say, "Hey, look you guys have been with us forever. This is honestly one of those things it's not going to take a super long time. It normally costs X dollars. But we're just gonna, we're gonna knock it out for you because we value your partnership." That kind of thing is obviously in the tool belt. But I think a conversation is probably the biggest thing. Also not being afraid to talk about money, because I think all of this stems from a fear that somebody is not going to want to pay for something. And what Kindra said earlier is absolutely right. Most people understand it. They run businesses themselves. In order for businesses to work, they have to get paid, and so services cost money. But in managing those situations where it gets a little bit more delicate, the more you can talk, the better and the more you can encourage a partnership approach, the better.
Ervin: It's also weird though. This always feels weird to me anyway, and you just did it without even really considering what you were doing. I've had to tell people this too, that if we do something like that for a client don't tell them, "Hey, we did this, we did you a solid here. Normally this would cost you," then you're not getting any credit for what you did. So you do have to pat yourself on the back a little bit, but you do have to let the client know that normally this would cost them some money, but it's not in this case. Not in a snotty way, but it's true. If I don't tell you that what I just did for you is out of the norm, then you're going to come back to me and expect me to do it every time and also I don't get the good feeling credit that I should get for having done you a favor.
BJ: This is Roberts’ wheelhouse, but let's consider that a marketing effort, otherwise we'd spend a thousand dollars on a marketing effort to get a hearing with someone for a job, or this little effort costs us whatever our hourly rate is, the next time their project comes up, we're top of mind. We've spent a lot less money to be on the top of their mind the next time a project comes around.
Roberts: I attached a dollar value intentionally, because I'm pretty sure 10 years ago or more you, Matt Ervin, ingrained that in my brain as something that you always do, so thank you for that. If you can remind somebody of the value of what we're doing it's more just about making sure that everybody understands that the value was created on their behalf, which is a positive thing. It does keep somebody from just taking it for granted and coming back 2 weeks later and saying, "Oh, they did that last thing for free." They realize that there was some cost to us for us to do that change, even if we didn't charge them.
David: So for us and for any really any provider of professional experiences, the thing that's always top of mind and forefront is the customer client experience. I think all four of you guys touch on a different phase or aspect of that. But BJ gets the distinct responsibility of handing the bill at the end which is part of the client experience. We talk a lot about how to maintain the quality of the client experience through the website design process. But how do we extend that to the billing and invoicing phase? How do we make the client experience a good one all the way down to getting the invoice sent to you at the end?
Ervin: BJ is a good experience in and of himself. So that's step one.
BJ: Yeah. So send me your checks. You'll have a great experience sending me money.
BJ: I don't know if we have this explicitly stated, but there is this understanding from start to finish, at least on our teams, that there's just a kindness about our relationship. That's the intent. There's just a kindness about it, and we're not trying to steal anything from you and you're not trying to take advantage of us. So that certainly goes to invoicing. Now, more times than not, probably the person writing the check, isn't the person that's involved in the project, but they still have influence. They're still going to invite another person that otherwise might not be in the project into it to give input on their experience. If they're a jerk or if I'm a jerk to them, they're going to say that, which will spill over into the creative process. In the realm of creativity, ideas don't cost much. Everybody loves kicking around ideas and changing things like design. But when you have to start writing a check for something, now that gets very sensitive. We are all like that. For example, refinancing most mortgages these days. I love all the ideas about lower rates. It's all ethereal until now, you have to sit down and sign this and pay this money. Then it's more than just the numbers. You ask yourself, Have I trusted this person? Have they done this quickly? What's my vibe about them? Although I'm way in the backdrop of our company, and I'm glad to be that, we just don't want any feeling of hastiness or that they're not getting any value associated with an invoice, for example. If someone just needs some time, that's fine. You can edit this out, but we really don't have any goons to send out. I tell our clients that often. They'll call very apologetic, very nervous. Please don't shut our site off. I tell them we don't have any goons. We're happy to work with you. That often just encourages a little more cooperation on their end towards that.
Kindra: I think one thing that the projects team and the accounting team does extremely well is they're in each other's business a lot. So there's a lot of communication on when things should be happening and what's happening as far as "Hey, we expect this bill for client A, to go out at the end of the month. Are we going to make that billing date?" And then the projects team being able to say, "no, let's hold it" or "go ahead and send it." I think that cuts down on a lot of turmoil, just that our teams are in communication with each other. Like BJ said, the accounting department is not really involved in the project, but the fact that they know that we missed a deadline, so we're not going to send it, or that the client was super happy. Go ahead and send it. In fact, they said to send the final bill. Just having that touchpoint between our teams has been really beneficial.
Roberts: You actually made me think of something that we've done for so long. I wonder especially for other agencies that are out there, I wonder if they're doing the same thing. BJ is in all of our teamwork projects. He has tasks that help him know where any given project is at any given time. Those are billing checkpoints that we get to. So to spur those types of conversations where he can check in with our project managers to say, "Hey, where are we on project X?" He doesn't have to remember to do those things. They're just built into our project flow, which I think is a really great best practice that we've been using for a long time. Like you said Kindra, it keeps conversations going and making sure if the second 40% is supposed to hit when a certain milestone is presented and client can't meet for a couple of days had to reschedule, that can change a perfectly fine experience to really bad experience if an invoice is delivered a couple of days early because there isn't that communication or visibility into the project progress, but because we're able to see those things get shifted around in real time. He can let us know that he saw something have pushed off a couple of days, and if we want him to hold off on sending the invoice and project managers can give him the thumbs up and usually give that context for us to know everybody's on the same page.
Kindra: It's the middle ground between being on autopilot and then having to do everything by hand. Neither of those are great solutions, but by him being implemented in our process and being able to see it, he's not just having to do it manually, but he can make sure it's on track so we're not the robotic vendor.
BJ: That's excellent. If we're relationally aware and even if contractually, we're at a place where someone signed the agreement and we could bill them now for this based on what they signed. But if we're able to ask "Hey, I know we're supposed to bill this." As Matt said, "How'd that conversation go?" If they left the conversation with a bad vibe or is a little bit difficult. Then let's not send the invoice. That's gonna make things worse. We can be really flexible in that. If it goes well, then it will be received well. But you have to find a way to communicate between the teams to do that.
Kindra: That's probably a really hard thing to start. For another agency, just to start doing it that way will feel they're not getting anywhere, but it really is something that only works because it's already in place. We've already built up the good relationships and we've already built up to where we're doing 40/40/20, and so we have a good cash flow.
Ervin: I think one of the things that's interesting as I've sat here and thought about all the different things we've said and the explicitly stated and implied reasons behind them. What you really see is that we, pat ourselves on the back again, have a corporate culture that wants to be easy to do business with. We want to do things fairly. We want to do things in a way where the client feels they're getting value for what they're paying for, and they're not paying for it until they've had the value and we're willing to work with people based on their situation. So that's one of the good things about working at a place like this.
David: It could be a second episode, or even it's own podcast. We have a lot of topics we can cover and continue to cover. A lot of complex stuff that I don't understand, and that's why I have you guys around. We do have time for one more very important question. Keeping with the theme of our podcast of never talking about any movies or TV shows that came out after 1996. I think there's not a lot of people in the office that can go toe-to-toe with me on a few subjects.
One of them is the great career of Jerry “The King” Lawler, and the other one is the Andy Griffith Show. BJ, you are the top Andy Griffith show historian in the office. My final and most important question for you today. What is your favorite Andy Griffith show episode? I will go first and answer that first. So it's a later episode, in color. It's when Andy commits to eating three different dinners and has to eat spaghetti three times. It happened to me one time. With my wife's family, not to appear rude, I went to their house and had to eat a second dinner, so that was very impactful on me. What episodes of the Andy Griffith show were impactful on you?
BJ: Yeah, I might push back there. I don't consider any color episodes part of the cannon. If I may, I have two answers. As for the episode, perhaps the one that comes to mind more often than not, is when Barney gives the governor's car a ticket. And he's very nervous about that. The governor is proud that he did it, but Barney doesn't know that the governor's proud and he spends the whole episode very nervous that the governor is going to come see him. As a side note here, a little bit of trivia, everyone knows Ron Howard is the one who played Opie on the show. And on that particular show, the governor's driver was Ron Howard's dad.
BJ: Ron Howard's brother, Clint Howard, is also on the show every so often. He plays Leon and everyone knows Clint Howard because he was the smog strangler in Seinfeld. That was Clint Howard.
David: I think he's also on an episode of Star Trek too.
BJ: As for the funniest bit, I don't want to belabor no, actually I do want to belabor this because more people need to be involved in the Andy Griffith show. The segment is Barney reciting the preamble to the Constitution. So Google "Barney Fife preamble to the constitution" and be prepared to take a couple of hours off to recover, because it is hilarious.
Roberts: And now, Caffey, can you go optimize this episode to show up as the top search result for googling "preamble Barney Fife constitution"?
David: I can at least get us to the top three, but I would agree. I think there are a few people in history like Don Knotts, where you could take them and put them in any era or genre of comedy and that would still be funny. So I would agree with you on that. Kindra, Matt, Matt, would you like to weigh in on this conversation?
Ervin: I would. I don't know the title of it, but my favorite episode is the one where they finally get a motorcycle and Barney keeps calling it "But Andy, we've gotta have the sickle" That one is absolutely hysterical.
Kindra: I can whistle the theme song, and that's about it.
David: Still counts for something.
BJ: That's the ringtone on my phone, by the way.
Kindra: I don't doubt it for a second.
Roberts: I watched a lot of the Andy Griffith show growing up, but I have no enduring memories that have really stuck with me other than the theme song.
BJ: It really shows. It really shows Matt.
Kindra: How do you feel about Bryce Dallas Howard? Ron Howard's daughter.
BJ: I couldn't tell you anything about her.
Ervin: I hear she knows a lot about hockey.
Roberts: Yeah, she does. Cause she knows you miss a hundred percent of the shots you don't take.
David: There it is. Cha ching. We did it.
David: Well. That is it for today. I hope you guys enjoyed it. I don't know how many Andy Griffith fans we have listening to our podcast, but if you are one of them, you are very welcome for that last segment. I want to thank BJ Maxwell one more time for taking the time to join us and impart some of his wisdom. Like we said, I'm sure we could have our own spinoff podcast solely about the topics we covered today. So I'm sure we'll be hearing more from him in the future.
David: If you're interested in learning more about the digital marketing agency world, we have a ton of content that touches on the various facets of content strategy, web design, SEO, and more on our blog. So head over to madebyspeak.com To check out the latest and greatest there. If you'd like to embark on your own web design or digital marketing journey with Speak, be sure to reach out. You'll find our contact info on madebspeak.com as well. As always, if you have any questions or feedback for today's episode, we'd love to hear from you. Speak is on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, whichever social media platform you prefer. We are there. If you enjoyed the show, I'd ask you to please subscribe and leave a review on your podcast platform of choice. And so from myself, our panel and guests today, and all of us at Speak. Thank you once again for getting A Little Off Topic with us.
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