Are you an introvert or an extrovert? Is there a cure to impostor syndrome? Join Speak Creative's VPs for an off topic conversation about how personality types impact your work and how you miss 100% of the shots you don't fake.
Decoding Impostor Syndrome | Episode 3
David: Hello everyone, thank you for joining us. Welcome once again to "A Little Off Topic," one agency's water cooler chat on digital marketing, business, and all the things that get in the way, presented by Speak Creative.
So we are definitely living up to our name this week, as we step quite a bit outside our usual realm in "A Little Off Topic" from digital marketing and website design development to talk about impostor syndrome. For those not familiar with impostor syndrome, it's essentially that feeling of inadequacy and self-doubt that makes you feel like your accomplishments aren't valid. It makes you feel like you're not in the right place or that others around you are superior. If you ever thought that you were "faking it until you make it', that's how I've always defined it. This episode is most likely going to be for you. My name is David Caffey, I'm the Digital Marketing Manager at Speak, as well as your host/moderator for today's discussion.
Joining me once again are the VPs at Speak. Matt Roberts is our VP of Marketing and Sales, Kindra Svedsen is VP of Client Partnerships, and last but not least, the second of our two Matts today, Matt Ervin is VP of Creative Services.
So we'll spend some time today talking about what impostor syndrome has meant for us, how we've seen it rear its’ ugly head in our professional lives and in the agency world. We may have even discovered a cure over the course of our chat, so stay tuned for that.
And finally, I touch on it briefly at the beginning, but we'll close out today talking about personality types and the great debate of extrovert vs. introvert. So stay tuned for the second half. We'll do a deep dive on that. So let's get right to it. As always, thank you for taking the time to listen to our show today, and I hope you enjoy this edition of "A Little Off Topic."
David: Alright, we're getting introspective today. We're talking about introverts, extroverts, everything in between, and the side effects. Kindra, back with us again, are you an extrovert or an introvert?
David: Alright, I'm going to hold you to that. We're going to come back to that later. Matt Roberts, I think I know the answer to this one already, but extrovert or introvert?
David: Well then I’m surprised.
Roberts: Oh yeah!
David: Again, we'll come back to that later. Matt Ervin, introvert or extrovert?
Ervin: Definitely an introvert.
David: I am of course, David Caffey, your host again. I just talked to you in the intro, but I'm going to say it again. I am an introvert as well, but we're going to start with a side effect of the introvert vs extrovert thing. Impostor syndrome.
The good folks, our partners at Wikipedia, define impostor syndrome as “a psychological pattern in which one doubts one's accomplishments and has a persistent, internalized fear of being exposed as a fraud.” I called it fake it until you make it. I think this is a universal thing that we all face. I am a very severe sufferer of this. I feel like, as you can tell by my talking voice, that it's my one talent is talking myself into situations and that's the only reason I'm here. So anyway, how do you guys define impostor syndrome, and how is it? Are you a sufferer of it? What's your experience been?
Kindra: Well, as the resident extrovert, I guess I'll start because that's just what I do. I define it as feeling like a fraud or feeling like you're about to be exposed. There's a lot of moments early on in my career where I have thought, "they're going to find out I don't know what I'm doing," or “they're going to find out that I'm not as good as they thought I was," or "I'm going to let them down.” I think it can show that way too, it doesn't always have to feel fraudulent, but you just feel like you're not going to meet expectations. You're missing the mark, and it's paralyzing a little bit. I think that there's definitely been moments where you let that fear creep in and then you can't get it out of your head. It's definitely a great topic, I'm glad we're talking about it today. I have never once shared the idea of impostor syndrome with someone without them saying, "Wow, I know that exact feeling." So I think it's pretty universal to feel it in some way or another.
Roberts: Yeah, I agree 100% with that. I found a definition online that I just pulled back up a minute ago that I thought was helpful. It added to the idea that says, “impostor syndrome is a feeling that you haven't earned your success. You simply got lucky and you're a fraud or impostor around people who actually earned it and know what they're doing.” It's that last bit, the "around people who actually earned it and know what they're doing" that I feel like is as paralyzing as anything else. You're among peers who you psychologically just assume are judging your performance and thinking, "How did this joker get here?"
The truth that I've chosen to believe about impostor syndrome is that because we all struggle with it, we're all thinking the exact same thing. We can use that to affirm our teammates and affirm the people in our lives to say, "Hey this thing that you do, even though you've probably never vocalized that you're super self-conscious about the fact that you don't believe that you're very good at it, I actually see it and see value in it and affirm you in that skill set." As soon as I started reading it, I realized this is something that certainly I struggle with.
Kindra: The first time I heard the term, it was like, "Oh, this is a normal feeling. Wow." Because you just feel alone.
Ervin: This is going to sound weird or like a humble brag, I guess.
Roberts: Matt doesn’t struggle with it!
Ervin: Actually, I don't struggle with impostor syndrome. I don't know if it's because I'm the old guy in the room and have been around a little bit longer and been dealing with things longer, but I think there's two things that helped get me past that. One of them is being okay with saying, "Yeah, I don't know." It's a pride issue, right? In some cases, if you're supposed to be the expert, you can say, "Yeah, I don't know" and you feel that you're letting people down.
For example, when I talk to clients, I have a few clients that I'm really the only person that talks to them. If they ask me questions about SEO, I go, "Yeah, I have no idea. But I got a guy who's awesome at it, and let me talk to him." Our fearless host, David Caffey, let me talk to him and then get back to you. If you've learned how to manage your ego a little bit, which is harder for some people than others, then you're okay saying that. You're okay with it. I don't feel like I'm a fraud because I don't understand digital marketing SEO and software development. I understand software development pretty well.
Kindra: That's interesting to me because I don't mind saying "I don't know" when it's out of my wheelhouse. But if it's something that I have to do, let's take career out of it, being a parent. If it's having a hard conversation with a kid, how many times have I looked at my husband and said, "Why are we allowed to do this? Like who gave us this kid?” Because I just don't feel equipped. I don't think it's necessarily just in career, but I think it's where your expertise is supposed to lie.
Ervin: But you're setting that expectation, right? You're saying I'm expected to be an expert parent. I'm not an expert parent, I've been a parent for 11 years and have never been very good at it, in my opinion.
So if you feel like you're supposed to be an expert in it, and then fake it until you make it, I think that generates the impostor syndrome. For me anyway, it's the willingness to say "I'm not an expert at this" even though it's something that I should be able to do, based on my title or position or role as a parent or whatever. If you're okay saying, I don't know, then that's one way to help combat one of the sources of impostor syndrome.
David: One point you made earlier, so you said you're the old guy in the room, but I took that as with wisdom and experience this gets better. Do you feel that when you were earlier on in your career, I'm still early on in my career, did you feel it more then? Do you feel like you could recognize it and get better at it, or do you feel like from day one you're prepared to take it on?
Ervin: Yeah, that's a good question. I would say that it's definitely learned. I learned how to deal with that and early on at Speak, as a 27-year-old when I started, we'd get into a situation with an IT department, and I'd be looking at 50-year-old dudes who either knew their stuff or knew a lot of vocabulary I didn't know. They're looking at me saying, "Well, you're Mr. Website Guy, you should be able to handle this." After I got over the fear of saying, "I don't understand what you're saying" it became a little more natural for me to be able to do that. In those cases, being totally intimidated by somebody you know has a decade more knowledge than you do, I still never really felt like an impostor. I felt like I had a lot to learn. My approach to dealing with those situations was "as soon as I get out of this meeting, I've written down all these words I didn't know, I'm going to go look them up and figure out what they mean, so that I understand what's going on." That added to my confidence once I got there.
Roberts: I do think that taking a positive response to it saying "Hey, this is an opportunity for me to learn and grow, and not just maybe in skill, but an emotional capacity or understanding of human condition," I think that those are wise words.
Kindra: I am kind of speechless, just hearing you all say that, because my gosh, that is the dream. That is the goal to walk in to a meeting and be like, "Yeah, Mr. Executive, I don't know how to do that, but you know what, I'll figure it out" and be able to say that. Surely, I think it.
Ervin: I will tell you that just another lesson learned from being old is that I would much rather look at somebody and say, "I don't know how to do that" or "I don't know what you're talking about" than back myself into a corner where I get busted or make a promise I can't keep. For me, it's a punishment-reward situation where the punishment or the negative aspect of saying, "I don't know" is much less stress on me than the other two options — getting busted being a fraud or making a promise I can't deliver on.
Kindra: Can I flip the script on you? So, not dealing with impostor syndrome, but say you're sitting across from someone junior to you, can you talk about maybe your experience with their impostor syndrome? So if they say "I don't know" how do you feel about that? Is that okay? How do you react? Maybe that's the perspective we need to hear as sufferers of impostor syndrome is the truth.
Ervin: This is like a therapy session. It's all in your attitude and how you say it, right? The reason you're saying it. If you're saying "I don't know, just do it for me." That's not great. You're not part of the team at that point. If you're saying, "Yeah I don't understand, show it to me," that's great. You've said, we're in a place where we are dealing honestly with what we do and don't know, and we're going to work on getting past that hurdle.
I think that's part of it. Talking about a sales situation or either place like if I'm selling or being sold to. If I'm talking with the salesperson and they say, I don't understand what you're saying or what you're asking, how do they present themselves in the whole picture? Are they saying "I don't know what you're asking about, but we're going to work together and figure it out" or are they just saying "yeah, I don't know."
There's a big difference to "we're going to work through this together," or "help me get through this" versus "just do it" or "I don't know, so I'm not even going to bother with that."
Kindra: So a little bit of humility, maybe.
Roberts: I think the other part of helping others deal with impostor syndrome is that there's a tendency for "I don't know" to feel like an okay thing to say and then say "Oh man, they helped me through that. I still don't feel like I'm equipped, so the next time this situation comes up, I'm going to go and do the exact same thing and ask for the exact same help." There's kind of a tension on us as leaders to affirm that person has the capacity, ability, and autonomy to go and perform that action without our intervention in a growing capacity. It's not an on-off thing, but it's easy to create dependency if all we're doing is saying "Hey, yes. You say you don't know. Let me help you understand."
Kindra: Yeah, I love the "we believe you have the capacity'. That's kind of where I've coached it. I think you can simultaneously suffer from it and also coach others through it, which I've found myself doing. That's the angle I take is that "We know you really are the expert. We hired you because we believe you're the expert, which means you have the capacity to be the expert. Even if you're not right now. We hired you for what you're capable of." So I think that that has been helpful to hear and that's something that I've passed on to others as well.
I do think about this often, I've never really thought about it in light of impostor syndrome, but maybe it starts when we're little, we look at our teachers, and celebrities, or whoever it is we look up to, sports stars — and we think that they've got it all together. I never once thought about my teacher's personal life growing up, and then now that I'm a mom and I'm friends with their teachers, I see, "Oh, wow, they are human." Maybe that's where it starts because we forget that people are just humans?
Roberts: Yeah, everybody has insecurities about lots of different things, and I think it's easy for us to internalize all of our own insecurities and not really look at the rest of the world and say, "Man, what is everybody else struggling with?" Because we're not in their heads, so we just kind of assume the by-product of their lives, the things that we're able to observe, is all there is to it. So those insecurities don't necessarily come out in a work environment or in some of these other places, so it's a good point.
David: The one big side effect that I feel from it is that when a failure or let down happens, it's really hard to bounce back when your foundational thinking is like "well, I already screwed up" or "I was a messed up person, to begin with." So when a client loss happens, or where in the SEO world, rankings drop, it just kind of reinforces it. That's the problem that I feel like the solution is what I'm looking forward to. I guess over time, it's a little easier to deal with, but in my world, that's where it hits me the hardest.
Roberts: I think something that you're hitting on that I think is useful to maybe just call out specifically and name it, is the idea that with impostor syndrome, there's kind of this idea that you're kind of balancing on the edge of a knife and if you mess up...It feels high stakes all the time because you lack the ability to take a step back and have perspective on what's brought you to your current point and all the great work that you've done. So of course, if you screw up, the stakes are not that big. It's okay to just say, “oh well,” chuck that one in the loss column, and let's keep moving. That's worth highlighting just as we talk through it, to the extent that you can take a step back and say, "Okay, I am better at this than I think I am, this one insecurity or one failure isn't representative of everything that I've done. Just being able to have that perspective and realize this is a moment in time thing, not a consistent pattern. Hopefully, that makes some sense.
Ervin: As you've been talking, it also dawned on me that David, and you Roberts, and Kindra all do a different type of work than I do or fight a different type of battle. So SEO is the easiest one to talk about. Sales and marketing both fall right in line, but David is constantly fighting against other professionals in his space. He wants to get our clients to rank well for certain keywords, those clients have competitors who are using our competitors, who want to do the same thing. With sales, Matt's going out and talking with people and our competitors are doing the same and it's a win-lose, we win it or we lose it. With David, it's our whether rankings go up or they go down. Digital marketing, did we convert well or not?
When you've got somebody that's actively trying to stop you from doing things, it is a little bit different because I think you probably have a lot more failures. They're smaller in scale, but you have a lot more of them than somebody like me. My failures are "I didn't stop something that I saw coming when I should have" or "I didn't pay attention to something long or quick enough" or "somebody on my team really botched something." That's very different than having a competitor beat you at something, even if it's momentary and small.
Kindra: I think as leaders there are two things that we need to do. One is to leave space for growth, which also means there's space to accept failure. If you're allowing your employees to grow, then you have to know that sometimes they might not get it right. But, number two is training them and/or hopefully you're hiring them because they're already like this, to be employees who come to you with solutions and not just problems. If someone comes with failure as a leader, you should be asking them what the solution is, not telling them how to fix it. So that they are self-teaching, learning, and growing. I think that's how we train out impostor syndrome.
Ervin: Yeah, this is something I tell my kids all the time is, there's no better teacher than the failure. There's no better way to learn something than to fall flat on your face. The other thing I tell them all the time is that it's not that you have problems, because everybody does. It's how you deal with them that makes the biggest difference.
Roberts: I think those are super wise words. I wish I said those types of things to my kids.
Kindra: You can! They don't listen to the podcast.
Roberts: That's true. Suddenly Dad started being way more supportive!
But I think there's a third point to what you said, Kindra, and that is that I think we need to recognize that people aren't going to tell us what they're struggling with. I think we invite it all the time, we say "Hey, please let us know if there's something that you're struggling with that we can help you with." There are just some things that are just personal and frankly, we're not secure enough to even sometimes admit them to ourselves. We would certainly not feel comfortable admitting them to somebody else that we work with.
I think a third point that I would add is just to understand that this is a thing that maybe not everybody struggles with, but certainly a lot of people struggle with, so to just do the active work of combating it by proactively affirming skill sets. Also, try to build that belief into the folks that we work with and that we get to lead.
David: My last question I have for you guys on my list here is, is there a cure? And it sounds like there is, but there's a lot of factors in it and a lot of things that take a lot of time. You have to get old and you have to fail a lot. The more failure and the more old, that's a recipe for success.
Ervin: Both of those describe me perfectly well.
Ervin: Well originally we were going to talk about introvert versus extrovert, but we're really stuck on the impostor syndrome thing. Do you guys think that impostor syndrome drives you to be an introvert?
Kindra: As an extrovert, when I'm feeling impostor syndrome, that is when I'm shutting down, which is why I thought they related so well.
Roberts: Yeah, the thing is, introversion and extraversion are personality traits. They're not circumstantial. I'm not an extrovert part of the time and an introvert other parts of the time.
Kindra: That's me, I consider myself technically an ambivert. That's a real term, look it up.
Roberts: Multivert? Polyvert?
Kindra: No, I think that it is certainly a personality trait, but spoiler alert: one of my big points on being extroverted is that that doesn't mean I'm on all the time and excited all the time and happy all the time. It's not a prescriptive label and I think that it can be driven by how you're feeling with career and impostor syndrome and life and all of that.
Ervin: Yeah, the introvert extra thing is interesting to me. Any training that I have in this stuff is based on Myers-Briggs, which is not as cool as the Enneagram, which I have not read and to need to understand. But with Myers-Briggs, if you're an extrovert or an introvert, a lot of the ways those are identified is basically, would you rather work alone or in a small group of people you really trust? or do you feel good working in a big group of people? Do people energize you? or do people wear you out? That's kind of the difference.
And for me, this is great because it's a small group of people that I trust and I like talking to. So as an introvert, I'm okay with this. But what's really weird is that as an introvert, I do things like public speaking. I'm pretty okay at it. It doesn't worry me. I'm a spin instructor, so I sit up in front of a bunch of people with a microphone and sweat and tell them what to do. And those to me, seem like weird things for an introvert to be able to do or to even enjoy doing.
David: I 100% am exactly the same way and the way it's been described to me is that in those situations where you're talking in front of a group of people or teaching a class of people, or doing something like this even, where conversation structure is defined ahead of time, the agreement is, you're going to listen to me talk and I'm going to talk to you guys, and then it's going to be over.
Whereas in a free-flowing conversation with a group of people, you're in the minute. You're coming up with stuff off the top of your head. Your energy is outward. It's free-flowing. So I have a lot of trouble with big groups where we're just standing around, I don't go to the kitchen for Happy Birthday anymore because I just want to sit at my desk by myself. That's the best way I can describe it. To sing Happy Birthday, by the way, not just for Happy Birthdays. I don't know, Happy Birthdays aren't just like a thing. Anyway, we don't even sing Happy Birthday. Sorry, I'm on a tangent.
Kindra: No, it's social interaction versus a structured environment that I think you're allowed to definitely be two different sets. Because you're right, it's a transaction. Everyone's in agreeance on what's about to happen, that's a very different situation than putting yourself out there conversationally to new people.
Ervin: Yeah, that's a great, great description. I've never really thought about it that way before, but I have a great story that illustrates exactly what you're talking about introverts and extroverts.
So my brother is an extrovert and he married his wife who is like an uber-extrovert, she is the most extroverted person I've ever met. She can go to the mall and while you're in the dressing room, she's made five friends. One of them will probably stick and they'll be friends for a long time. It's crazy, she is so extroverted and people just love her. She's great. So we're at their house one time and we were trying to think of what to get my dad for his birthday or Father's Day or something, and she said, "Hey do you guys want to brainstorm some ideas for a gift for your Dad?" And I was like, yeah sure. So I was in a recliner and I kicked back and just sat there, and she's looking at me and finally I looked up and she goes, "So that's a no?" I was like, “No! I'm brainstorming ideas, what are you doing?”
Kindra: Yeah, I feel her pain, but I feel like there's a little bit of a stigma on extroverts to introverts and vice versa. I am very aware if I'm an energy taker or an energy giver. I can see interacting with introverts if I'm taking too much. It's something maybe that goes back to Enneagram and being hyper-aware of other people's feelings as an impact, but I am constantly wondering if I'm being too extroverted. Then I will get very reflective and kind of shut it down, which goes against my nature, but it has to happen sometimes. I'm sure introverts everywhere are saying, "Thank God.'
David: So the Enneagram thing came up a few times, I heard from both you guys. I took the Enneagram and I have points in every category and I couldn't really interpret anything out of it. Kindra, I guess you're the one that probably has more familiarity with it, have you taken that? Do you derive a lot of information and value out of it? Or do you just know about it conversationally?
Kindra: Well, there's just a lot. I think a lot of people put a ton of stock into it. I'm not necessarily one of those people. Maybe this shows my social media tendencies, I follow my hashtag. So I'm a 2w3, which is "The Helper" with the wing of "The Achiever." So, I will read things that any Enneagram Institute has put out about personality, and I've learned a lot about myself through that. But then knowing close coworkers’ Enneagram numbers, I've learned a lot about communication styles. I think it's just like Myers-Briggs or the DISC assessment. I think that if you can use it to highlight what they're feeling in certain moments, then it becomes really helpful. I work with quite a few 1s, and they are very black and white. They want the rules to be followed. When they have to deviate, they can get a little sassy, which fits some of my very closest friends to a T.
Roberts: The thing that's useful about the Enneagram is it's one of the first or maybe the first personality systems I got to that helped me actually. There are a lot of personality systems that interpret the way you behave and say, "Hey you're this mix of things" and the Enneagram gives you the opportunity to see what motivates you or what produces that behavior, which has been really enlightening for me because I've always struggled with the way that I behave. David pointed to this in our intro. I tend to, especially around people that I know, tend to be somebody who's not shy and I try to make people laugh. I'm pretty comfortable around people that I know and I tend to not really show introverted tendencies.
But if you put me into any kind of a social situation, like I'm the guy that goes and hides in a bathroom for 25 minutes.
Kindra: Yeah, see I do that though, that's why I'd consider myself an ambivert. That's totally me.
Roberts: I think that that's just one of those things where it was really confusing for me, not to make this segment entirely about the Enneagram, which may be useful at some point. If you listen to an Enneagram podcast or any of that stuff, everybody always says, take the test, but really your best bet is to ask the people around you and really evaluate your own life. Ask yourself, where do I fit? Just because with a test, it's just not the best measure.
I started looking into the Enneagram and I'm a Type 5 with a 6 wing. In stress, I go to a 7, which is kind of an outgoing, personable, a little bit scatter brained personality. So that fits with me when I'm in a situation where I have to perform. I tend to try to start joking and be louder and I've become hyper-aware of that. But as I started digging into my Enneagram type, it really did help me understand the balance of how my behavior might look like an extrovert, but internally, I'm just kind of dying inside when I'm around people. I just can't wait to get a break and be compressed for a few minutes.
Kindra: I get that. That whole go to the bathroom to decompress during a party, I didn't realize that was a thing that other people did for a long time.
Roberts: Being with my wife, Elissa, she's an extrovert, and it's the best thing in the world because I can just stand next to her and smile and nod and try to make a witty comment every once in a while. I feel like I get to be a part of this social experience without actually having to take on the burden of carrying on a conversation. Going into parties before I've looked at Elissa and I'm like, "Don't you leave me." If at some point she's off in a group talking and I get separated, I immediately feel like the guy that's just standing around and everybody's looking at me. I'm just kind of shaking my head around like, I don't know what to do!
Ervin: You want to know something really funny? So at Speak Week this last year, we did our murder mystery thing, totally not anything that I'm going to be comfortable doing. Just not at all. Christy knew that she gave me the perfect character. I didn't have to do anything, it was fine. But, I realized at some point during that night that I kept looking around and I wasn't doing this consciously, but I know this is what I was doing. I kept looking around for people who are more extroverted that I knew pretty well and would go and stand by them for a little bit. So honestly, I've known Elissa since she was like 6 or maybe younger, I sought her out a couple of times to stand next to her. She'll talk to people, and then when it started to feel weird, I was like "I've been standing here too long" and I would look across the room and think there's Adam Duncan. Then, I would stand by him and then I would go stand by Kindra, and then I just constantly moved around the people who are more extroverted in the room so that they would carry the conversation and I didn't have to.
Kindra: I would like to notion that we have a whole extra episode on that murder mystery dinner at some point, please. A whole podcast episode. That was great.
David: Yeah, I think we also set ourselves up for a part two on the personality test things, we got a lot of part two's out of the second half of this podcast, but I'll close on my murder mystery party story. I'm an introvert, but I signed up to be one of the leads in that thing, one of the people with the most lines and started wearing me down towards the end and I got really nervous. I forgot to say the last line that led the domino effect to the resolution of the story, so we just kind of just stopped doing it. So I still accept responsibility for that if we ever do get back together like that, I'll try to redeem myself in some way.
I will say on a closing note that as an introvert, sometimes you can ruin a murder mystery party. So you have to be aware of that going into those situations.
Roberts: But hey, I appreciate that you stepped in and we're like, You know what, I want a big role because you know what? You miss 100% of the shots you don't take, David.
Ervin: Oh, you do.
David: Yeah, first of all, great line. I guess the lesson learned was that I'm really comfortable. I've been here long enough and I'm friendly enough with everybody here that I go, "Oh yeah, that's not going to be a problem,” but it was. So, never second guess yourself as an introvert for something that's going to make you introverted-y. So anyway, that's my one last lesson. Thank you guys again. I think we covered a lot of cool stuff today. I think it was a good ep.
Ervin: A good ep?
Roberts: Is that what we're calling it?
Roberts: Alright, good ep guys.
David: So that is it for today. Well, we covered a lot of ground in that conversation, and really, if anything, we all had a nice little therapy session through all that. I hope you did as well. I ended up learning a ton. Hopefully, you guys did, whether you're an extrovert or introvert, somewhere in between. If you enjoyed today's episode, there's always going to be more content to check out on our website, that address is madebyspeak.com.
I cannot give our team enough praise for what's been posted there lately, it's just fantastic. So there's always going to be more coming there, so make sure to follow that and check that out. As always, if you have feedback, we'd love to hear from you.
You can find Speak on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, whichever you prefer. We're going to be there. So from myself, our panel, and all of us at Speak, thank you once again for getting A Little Off Topic with us.
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