Creative Direction

Creative Direction

What does creativity really mean and how do you direct it into meaningful work? In this episode, Speak's VP trio is joined by our Creative Director, Josh Cooper, to explore subjective design, the science behind design, and how to stay inspired. Join us for an off topic conversation about our crazy ideas and how we're achieving results for our partners.

Creative Direction | Episode 12

David: Hello everyone and thank you for joining us. Once again, you are listening to A Little Off Topic, one agency's water cooler chat on digital marketing, business, and all the things that get in the way, presented by Speak Creative. In the last few episodes, we focused mainly on the strategy and administrative side of the agency world. So today, we figured we'd dive head first into the creative part of Speak and when we're talking about creativity, there was no better authority on that subject than today's guest, Speak's Director of Creative, Josh Cooper. My name is David Caffey. I'm Speak's Digital Marketing Manager and the host of A Little Off Topic. Joining me this week and every week is Speak's VP leadership team. Kindra Svendsen is VP of Client Partnerships. In addition, we have our duo of Matts. First is Matt Roberts, VP of Marketing and Sales. Last but not least, we have Matt Ervin, VP of Creative Services.

David: We'll start today's chat by discussing what creativity means to us. After that, Josh walks us through a day in the life of a creative director in a digital agency and talks about some examples of Speak's latest and greatest creative work. For folks that are big time design nerds, in today's conversation, we'll also talk about the rules, science, and data that goes into making design related decisions and how Josh's team balances the data-driven elements of design with the aesthetic and subjective. We'll close out today by sharing some of our "so crazy they just might work" ideas which are about as creative as you can get for better or for worse. So a great chat with Josh today. I think you guys will enjoy it. As always, we thank you for taking the time to listen to our show today, and I hope you enjoy today's episode of A Little Off Topic.

David: So you can taste the electricity in the air, we're back. We have been talking a lot about the strategy and administrative side of the agency world and what we do at Speak in the last few episodes. But we have not spent a lot of time lately on the far more interesting and exciting side, the creative side of the agency. So today we have our Director of Creative, Josh Cooper, who is joining us as our fourth guest, going down in the history books. He's going to talk to us about what it means to be creative and the strategy that goes into the creative side of our work. So Josh, thank you for joining us and welcome to our podcast.

Josh: Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. 

David: So we're going to start off, Webster's dictionary definition is allowed here, but a question for all  — what does creativity mean to you guys?

Josh: I feel like I should go last. I want to hear what everyone else thinks first.

Kindra: I don't know that I have a great definition for it, but the root of the word "create" is where I tend to lean, just creating something new and visionary and bringing your own ideas out into the earth so other people can see it. That is where the best creativity is for me. That's how I define it.

David: Matts, how do you invoke creativity in your lives? Both professionally and personally?

Ervin: So I would disagree with Kindra that the root word in creative is not “create.” It's "ate." Because I like food a lot and I like to cook, so I see that. It fits. For me, I've worked over the years to learn different techniques in cooking and different styles and different types of cuisine from different areas of the country. So for me, creativity is taking bits of those things that I've learned and putting them together in a new combination or an original combination and see what comes out of it. So to me, that's what creativity is. With graphic design, the parallel holds up or analogy holds up.

Roberts: Okay. Ervin stole my answer.

Ervin: You were not going to talk about food.

Roberts: I was not going to talk about food. But it's the application of ideas and practices in a configuration that accomplishes a goal or a thing in someone's mind that either inspires or creates a solution. It's taking all the bits and pieces of your skill and craft and applying them toward an end goal in a way that is not commonplace. I'm losing my train of thought, but somewhere in there is what I'm trying to say. By the way, just in case we need to actually solve where the word "creative" comes from. It is from the Latin term "creo" which means to create or make. 

Ervin: Which sounds like Creole.

Roberts: Heck yeah, are you gonna make us some Creole?

Ervin: I can.

Roberts: I know you can. Alright, Josh is just waiting to burn us all at the stake.

Josh: I'm ready. Nobody said what I was going to say. I'm not surprised. Because for me, with creativity, I think back to being a kid and being curious. That's where creativity comes from. People who become creatives professionally have held onto that curiosity throughout what life has brought at them. When they're brought a project, no matter what the constraints are or what the client wants, they can be creative in that space because they're curious about making something new and better. I think creatives are very passionate about their work and it shows. To me, I believe everyone is creative. Even if you're not in a creative field, I just believe that everyone does creative things in different ways every day, and I've always believed that.

Ervin: Is that what you meant to say, Roberts?

Kindra: That's what I meant to say for sure.

Roberts: Yeah, his answer is better than ours. Josh wins the podcast.

Josh: I've just been doing this for a long time. I have a lot of philosophy behind it now.

David: Well, that's perfect. That's why we have you here. So you touched on it a little bit, but in the agency world, and at Speak, pretty much everybody has a hand in a creative element in their position in their role. But Josh, you and your team are really on the forefront doing the stuff that we would consider the top tier creativity going on in our business. So where do you see creativity displayed the most in our work right now? What kind of elements of what we're doing do you feel is the top tier creativity coming out of Speak at the moment?

Josh: Well, I think at Speak, we are always doing what we need to do and that's forward-thinking. This might not sound very creative, but getting a website to run faster and creative ways of doing that are just what Speak does best. There's stuff on the forefront, like building certain plugins for WordPress that are only available at Speak and we update them and things like that. We're just always forward-thinking. As far as design, if you're good at it, you're always at the next step. Right now, the big thing is UI/UX and our team is into that and looking at making that better for everything we do. Every department feeds into that. Starting from the project being sold, the salesperson talks about that with the client. Then the Brand Strategist comes in. Then the Project Manager. Everyone works together to make that stuff right. It can't just happen with the creative team. To be a good creative, you have to understand that. Did I answer that right?

David: You did. That was perfect. 10 points for that. We have a points system and I just came up with it.

Roberts: I was about to say, when did the scoreboard come in?

David: I was going to give you points for all that. Clearly, the research you did on defining the etymology of the word "creativity" deserved 10 points. So retroactively, you get 10 points.

Roberts: Yes!

David: So Josh, your title is Director of Creative. As we've said, Speak is creativity from top to bottom. So obviously on paper, it sounds like you're a very busy guy, but what is your title more defined? How would you define your title and what your role is with Speak?

Josh: My role is coming up with big ideas, is one of the main things that I do. But the second thing that I do a lot is give my opinion. We'll talk about this a little later, but creative work is subjective a lot of times, but I feel like I'm there because my title holds a little bit of weight with what I'm saying behind it. Because like I said, I have a lot of philosophy behind it. I've been doing this for a long time, so I can explain my ideas probably better than most and sell them as much as I need to because it is subjective. But my eyes are better than the clients a lot of times. I hope I can say that, but if I can't you can cut that out. So I'm trying to get them where I need them to be. So we can give them the best product that they can have, something that lasts for a long time.

Roberts: I certainly don't think that's something we should cut. That's something that clients hopefully value in us is that we are able to see more potential and what is available to them for how we can present them either online or wherever the application of the creative is going. It's hopefully comforting to a client to know that there's a team of people who are more creative than they are and who have a broader base for a specific vision. So even if they aren't there yet, we're trying to help them capture and understand, that's not to say that they don't have input and can't push us in a different direction or ask us to move in a different direction, but that we always want to be very forward-thinking. So to have a role like yours completely dedicated to that, to help our team move in that way, is a really valuable part of our creative team.

Josh: That kind of brought up some thoughts in my mind about how clients hire us to do this job and we just need to show them that we're the best at it. So that's why I say it takes everyone to do that. The creative has to be able to take all that information in and be creative within those boxes. It's a good box. We want to be in that box for the client and ask, “what can we do within those constraints that's just amazing?” That's part of my job to make the client feel comfortable with that. They don't know the designer like I do. The designer brings work and I'm there to back them up. I'm there before they [the clients] even see it to get it to the place that it needs to be. So I take it very personally when a client comes back and they're unhappy. I want to do everything I can to make them happy, but also in a way that the site functions and does what they need it to do.

Ervin: There's another aspect to Josh's role that is more acute here at Speak, but then also kind of applies to the relationship that we have with our clients. It's acute with how the designers and the design team relate to each other, but it's similar to how we relate to our clients. So if you think about if you've got a problem you're trying to solve and you've been working on it and you keep looking at the same thing all the time, it's really easy to get caught in a bad groove, a rut, so the client brings us in because we have technical expertise, but we also bring in a fresh perspective. So we can look at things in ways they haven't thought of yet and we can come up with new ways to tell their story because we're not necessarily encumbered by everything that helped them build this rut that they're in. Our team is good at doing that on a broad scale. But Josh also does that with the designers on a more narrow scale. Because they've been looking at their design over and over for long periods of time, he comes in with fresh perspective and experience and says, "Okay, but what have you thought about this way?" or "What if we made these changes to it? How does that affect what you're trying to do?" The symbiotic part of that is really interesting and it's why having somebody that has expertise and can back up what he thinks creatively makes a huge difference in our product.

Roberts: One of the things that strikes me as something that maybe I hadn't thought of until you just said that, Ervin, was how Josh is able to have a hand in all of our projects. When some new idea gets surfaced for another client, if it were just in that silo or that project with that designer, it probably filters out to the rest of the team at some point, because we collaborate. But it's not one of those things that the creative on that particular project is going to first sit back and think, "Oh, how could we also use this for somebody else?" or "Is there a different application of this that would be really great for another client that we have, because I know we've got all these other projects?" But because Josh does get to be involved in so many of our projects, that's the value add as well. It makes the improvement of our team, the application of great techniques, and the application of really great ideas happen faster. So we have a quicker evolution cycle to what we're doing and I'm very appreciative of that for sure.

Kindra: I don't disagree with anything that's been said. Josh, you've been here almost a year, right at a year?

Josh: Yeah.

Kindra: I can definitely see the way that specifically, our creative team has evolved. But that the role of creative direction is just a good reminder to evolve and push. We are creatures of habit and get into cycles of, "Here's our work. We're going to churn it out. We're going to keep going." I think that the role of creative direction has been great to come in and remind us that we are here to push boundaries, limits, and try new things. That's something that we can do no matter what team we're on, whether it's a designer or a content writer. The idea that we have to get out of cycles and into creativity is one that is something that's been really apparent to our team over the last year.

Josh: One thing I don't want to forget to mention too, because the question originally was some of the great things coming out of Speak right now, and I definitely want to mention our video team and the work that we're doing and pushing forward with is great. We recently were selected to be in the Indie Memphis film festival for our work with My Cup of Tea. So shoutout to everyone on the team. The whole Speak organization was definitely part of that and supportive of our endeavors there. So we're really thankful for that.

Roberts: For sure. I think that's an interesting dynamic because it's not as if you were just involved in artwork direction, you were involved in helping us understand what it's like to bring creativity to every part of our operation. Our video team has certainly benefited from your guidance and oversight as well. The My Cup of Tea project and several other things that have happened this year or are in production now are just fantastic. They're so good.

David: In our world, especially in the digital marketing department, there's a lot of repetition in putting out the work we do. We have to write blog topics on a lot of similar topics and ideas a lot. I would assume that in the design department, the video, and across the creative department, there's going to be a lot of times where we feel like we're in a cycle of "another website, another website, another website." Where do you guys look for inspiration and influence to keep ideas coming fresh and looking for the new trends and that sort of thing, to keep ourselves out of that rut? Like, here's the 20th website we worked on this year, how can we make this one unique and stand out from the other ones after we've done this so much?

Kindra: This is something I've been focused on a lot lately, but just for me it's user journey. For instance, on our customer support team, how we're responding to our customers should mimic the best customer experiences we ourselves have received. How we design a website to be navigated should mimic what we'd want to see if we were that user. So being empathetic and stepping into the shoes of who we're trying to reach helps us understand their intent and what they're actually looking for. Not what we're calling specific menu items, but what lives on those pages. How it looks and what I'm expecting from any given brand is really just that empathetic view of what needs to be done is what helps drive creativity for me, specifically in writing blogs or digital marketing. Because it helps me understand that I'm not searching for something just to click on the top three links and that's it, I'm searching for an answer. So if we can put ourselves in the shoes of who we're marketing towards or designing for, that helps inspire creativity quite often.

Josh: To piggyback on that, the user journey is where it can help everything you do be different, because every journey is different. So you're already starting on a different path every time. A resource for me has always been Dribble and probably always will be a place to look for new design trends. Then, the internet is, as y'all know, chocked full of great information. Some are not so great, so you have to know how to vet that stuff out.

Kindra: All of it is accurate.

Josh: Right. Early on in my creative career, the internet was the source. When you're young and creative and figuring it out, it's a great source to help you out. You just have to know what to look at, what not to look at, what to use, what not to use. A really big thing for me is surrounding yourself with creatives you trust and using their knowledge. At Speak, we just have so much knowledge in so many different aspects of creativity. I always tell the designers, "Ask the people around you first because they can help you.They can get you where you need to be." That's important for team building as well, just trusting the people around you. But even outside the circle of your job, per se, keep people around you that you really trust creatively and that's where I find a lot of inspiration from.

David: So I'll open this next question up to the whole group here. So we've probably said it 30 times now, that at Speak, we put creativity into every area of what we work on. Tell me how you guys think creativity is involved in your work. Obviously not all of us are working on hand-drawn illustrations and videos, but what are some ways that you guys weave creativity into your focus areas? Maybe some that people that are on the outside looking in wouldn't expect to require a lot of creativity, in terms of the work you're doing?

Roberts: Especially in the business development role that is part of what I do, one of the things that just delights me is to be able to talk to somebody who's in a particular organization and is just so used to doing things a certain way, and help them think beyond kind of the benchmarks and look to expand our ideas around what's possible when it comes to actually application execution. When you have a client latch onto that and begin to dream about what's possible and not just look to create some copycat version of a website that's already out there is the first piece of business development of helping somebody understand our expertise. It's not me pitching our team. It's not me pitching our creativity intrinsically. It's more just helping our client kind of surface up to the idea that there's a much broader world to explore and then opening them up to the idea that our team is going to walk them through a process to help them get to the very best of what we can create for them. But they've got to be able to surface themselves first, otherwise we're kind of stuck in a rut already. So that's the part of my job that I get to enjoy. So being able to be heads up on everything that our team is doing and everything that our team would point to as great examples of ideas that we can surface to the client in that type of situation is obviously for me, about as creative as I get. But it's certainly fun to be a part of that very beginning of helping them explore the idea and being open to the ideas of what's out there.

 

Kindra: On the client partnership team, just remembering that we're all creators and creative. Even if a lot of our illustration or design chops happen outside of work, I've got content writers that sketch every day and that are into animation and like graphic design. Just because it's a passion that they don't get to live out every single day doesn't mean they can't bring that creative mind into their work. So just having a team of creatives and knowing that we all have some kind of creative outlet, we're all creators of some kind, that helps that mindset because we are here to do things and push those limits that I was talking about and create new, exciting stuff. Even if it's a blog and I don't think most people would consider a blog sexy, but when you can pour your heart and soul into it and then see results that actually matter to a client, it's fun. It helps drive us to be even more creative. So I just think everyone on our team is some kind of creator. As long as we can remember that and that we have minds that are made to be creative, we're on the right track.

Ervin: I look at it a little differently. Most of what I do is solve problems. That's just kinda what I do. So for me, it's being able to take a step back from a problem and think creatively about other ways to handle an issue. So what if I remove this premise from the problem I'm looking at, even though it can't be removed, does that fundamentally change things? Or what is another assumption that we're making here, that we don't see, that doesn't have to be made? We could change that core underlying idea and shift how we do things or how we think about things. So for me, creativity at work is trying to broaden my perspective of what I'm looking at and how I'm trying to solve the problem. That's a little bit different than sketching. It's not as visual, but it's a similar mental function.

Josh: So besides the obvious stuff that I do in my role that we've already talked about, I have had to learn how to be creative is when I need to inspire the team that I work with and how to find creative ways to inspire them. For me in my career, that's always been work that I've done outside of work that has driven my work inside of work to be better.

David: So Josh, I'll put the spotlight back on you, we'll get into the nitty-gritty here to wrap us up. This is a topic that comes up a lot at Speak internally, but I'm sure it's something you're asked about a lot. So break us down, in the design process, there's obviously parts that are very backed by data and rules and logic and that sort of thing. Then there are parts that are pretty much down to the individual or the expression and creativity of the individual. What would you categorize as the more data-driven pieces of design versus the ones that are up for subjective analysis?

Josh: Sure. Well, we have a Brand Strategist and we have an SEO team that does a lot of work to figure out some of those things that we need to do on a site. I can think of an example recently where a client wanted two navigations of the same thing. So we went right to you, David. We said, "Hey, is this gonna work?" And you said no. We already knew that as creatives, because it just didn't look right as well, but there was data behind that. The important part of the data and the science behind design is it gets you started as a designer quicker. If you're with a client and you have a blank slate, all the data and the science can get you started right away. So your grid, your hierarchy of type, all those things are in scope of the certain project you're doing, get you started right away. After that is where the creativity can begin. Colors — those are subjective. Although I will put the caveat in, ADA is now a big thing in web design. So colors, while they may be subjective, you have to use certain ones so there's enough contrast for legibility and things like that. Font sizes — the fonts you use are subjective. The treatment you put on a photo is subjective. For me, they're subjective, but there's a way it looks right and there's a way it doesn't look right. So I'm going to try to get the client to let it look the right way. And if the first way that we present is to show them another way that looks right. My goal is to never just let them do exactly what they want, but I need to listen to them. A lot of creatives don't do that. They don't want to listen to the client, you have to listen to the client because they will bring some good ideas. What they do bring is the knowledge of their organization that you can't bring. So you have to listen. You know, that answers the question. ADA is the biggest thing now. It's a great thing because obviously it allows the web design and the site to be seen and experienced by a lot more people. It can be experienced by a lot more people, but it will put you in a little bit of a box sometimes. Because you had this great idea to put this white type on top of this color and ADA says nope, can't do it. So everything could change with one little thing.

Ervin: If I were able to design things that look pretty, which I'm not, I've tried to get made fun of repeatedly, even for things that are really old. By Jacob and Roberts. One of the things that would be really great about that experience, though, is I've taken a website, I've designed it, and I've got a client that wants what they want. The client's happy with it. Now we've looked at it and said, "Can this website do what it needs to do for everybody? For people who wouldn't normally get that experience, what is the benefit that they're going to get from visiting the site?" Being able to say if I make these changes or follow these guidelines, then now I can create something that is useful and meaningful that people can interact with, who wouldn't normally be able to interact with it. To me, there's just something great about that, so the box that it puts you in is really minor.

Kindra: Having that box of boundaries really helps us be more creative, because we understand the limits within which we can be creative. Sometimes we need that so that we can see the light at the end of the tunnel. We know exactly where it's at. We know how far we can reach and that allows our ideas to open up within that space. So feedback is a great thing, because it just gets us to a spot where we know how far we can take it, then we also know when that's not far enough and maybe when we should push harder. Like the navigation box that was thrown at us, we know when to push back against that because we do have that expertise, but having that front and center at least allows for that conversation to happen versus unmet expectations down the road.

Roberts: When we talk about doing client work, there's a purpose behind what we're trying to do. It's not a free form expression of the absolute maximum potential of our creativity. We're always working within some kind of box, because the client has a specific purpose in mind as an organization for the site that we're putting together. It is to communicate something. It's to move somebody to action. There's a philosophy that has to go into it that is just really valuable, but it's also worth recognizing, because you can go on to websites that have listings of these "out of this world" website experiences. Awwwards one. Some of the websites that I see on there can be pulled up and they're just beautiful and they have all this weird interaction, but then you think about many of those sites are just showcase sites. They're not performing a business purpose or an organizational purpose. Some of them are, but when we think about what's the maximum creativity that we can bring to a project is always within some kind of box because we're trying to work towards this business or organization purpose. That's where the user journeys come in and that's where user experience comes in. That's where we're trying to make sure that what we do doesn't get in the way of the end user doing the thing that the organization needs to do. Because we could do something probably more creative or that had more interaction, but if we start getting in the way of the end user we're defeating the organization and our client's purpose.

David: The good brother, Steve Jobs, once said that the crazy ones are the ones that change the world. They usually do. Right? So my final question, this doesn't have to be work-related, it could be any time in your life, your craziest idea, something you thought would never happen or never work, and actually did?

David: I will start with something work-related and there's like no real way to learn SEO without just saying "YOLO" and hitting publish on something, even though you think it might break. I do that all the time. Not as often anymore, but where I'm thinking — if I hit publish on this, it's gonna break everything. I've had a lot of moments where this would never work and it will break everything then it's the thing that fixes it. That's the most satisfying part of my job and my career and the moments I chase after. What are some crazy ideas you guys have had that have worked and you proved everybody wrong?

Roberts: Matt Ervin came up with Napster before it was a thing. "I am the Napster."

 

Ervin: I did not do that actually.

Kindra: I have one that sounds a little ethereal, it's weird. But, growing up, I always said, "I'm gonna work on Music Row someday" and learned really quick that you should be very specific with those intentions. I was in Florida and decided to take two interviews with an agency that was in Memphis, and had a Nashville office, without telling my husband. I did not tell him that a move was on the table until after the second interview. But, I found out during that interview that the Nashville office was located on Music Row, So I got to move to Nashville, work for a creative agency, one you might know, one you might be listening to their podcast. Our office was on Music Row. So definitely not what I envisioned, but saw it come to life. That's always a pretty cool story for me to think back on, about how I manifested something and I should be really specific the next time I try to manifest something.

Josh: I have hundreds, I'm just trying to decide on which one. Because as a creative, you always have all these things that you don't think that you can accomplish, but then you do accomplish. It's not even until like a couple months later, you look back and think, "Oh, I can't believe I did that." I was able to help art direct an entire full length movie at a previous employer. We made the entire movie for $60,000, which if anyone knows anything about movies, there's not even a category in bigger film festivals for anything under $250,000. It really came out amazing and we got distribution in stores and things like that. I was in it twice, too, but just in the background, and in one they blurred me out too. We kind of had to do what we had to do. As a creative, you always have to do what you have to do with the resources you have. So that really taught me that anything is possible in the creative world, as long as you're willing to do it.

Ervin: One time, me and a buddy were riding bikes down the Natchez Trace in Jackson, Mississippi when they were rebuilding a giant portion of it and I saw this heavy machinery and thought, "What if they leave the keys in those things?" It turns out they do it's pretty fun to drive a bulldozer and a steam roller. You can do a lot of crazy things with that. I would not recommend anyone else do that.

Kindra: You wouldn't know anything about that, huh?

Ervin: But it was fun. I saw it. I I thought, I'm going to take a shot. I'm going to go up there and see if there are keys in this big piece of heavy machinery.

Roberts: That's great, man, because you miss a hundred percent of the shots you don't take.

David: There it is. The phrase that pays.

Roberts: The phrase that pays. Caller number 9. I don't have anything good. I wish I did.

David: I'm getting a late breaking note from our producer. Who had an imaginary friends business idea? I think we found him.

Roberts: I feel like we've talked about this before.

Ervin: It can't hurt to repeat it.

Kindra: I think it got cut.

Roberts: I think it did get cut. I think there's a reason I got cut. The question is, "did you have an idea that eventually came to fruition" and this failed spectacularly. So I'll share it because I'm being compelled to share it at the moment. But as a senior in high school, in fall of 2001, I, along with a couple of buddies, thought it would be interesting to create a company online that would sell imaginary friends. The idea was we would ship you an empty box with a printed, customized backstory for your imaginary friend. That was the dream. Unfortunately, or more predictably, it failed spectacularly. Never sold a thing, but that was an idea that is still out there if anybody wants to take it and run with it.

Ervin: How much was an imaginary friend?

Roberts: I don't remember. I feel like it was around 20 bucks.

David: That sounds like an idea that could kinda use some creative direction. So maybe that we're all here, we can get off the Zoom call and write our Shark Tank application.

Josh: Since this is being recorded, I just want to get it on the recording, can I steal that idea, Matt? Is that okay?

Roberts: Sure, man, go for it. Absolutely. I'll take 10% of your royalties.

Josh: Yep. Whoah, hold on. We'll talk afterwards about all that stuff.

David: Well, that is it for today. I hope you guys enjoyed it. Thanks again to Josh Cooper for joining us today and sharing his perspective. I'm sure we will be hearing much more from Josh in the future. Also, if you're in the market for an imaginary friend, please reach out to Matt Roberts. The phone lines are open now, so don't delay. If you're interested in the topics we covered in today's show, we have a ton of content that touches on the various facets of content strategy, web design, digital marketing, and more on our blog. Head over to madebyspeak.com to check out the latest and greatest. As always, if you have questions or feedback for today's episode, we'd love to hear from you. What are your “so crazy they just might work” ideas? Speak is on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, whichever social media platform you prefer. We are there. If you enjoy the show, I'd ask you to please subscribe and leave a review on your podcast platform of choice. So from myself, our panel today, and all of us speak, thanks for getting a little off topic with us.

 

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